Bonovox

Mmm. Yes. And the P of Antioch too, needs to be renamed.

"Black Bart" is, of course, trying to appeal to the secular folks of Europe: he has to look more appealing - modern, hip, cool, PC - to the Europeans than the Turks. That in part (maybe in toto) because of all that alien domination and the general attitudes in all of orthodoxy: you should have seen what happened the last time I posted about the "Patriarch of Istanbul" and the suggestion that we just 'leave the mosque in their hands and move on'.

Ah yes, people who live in anachronistic houses shouldn't throw modernizing stones!

;-)

I hope we have that 8th council in my lifetime.

So why do so many Orthodox say "Constantinople"?

Shall I get it out of the way and invoke They Might Be Giants? :) "It's Istanbul, not Constantinople!"

It's unfair to claim that he has a flock of "about 40" when we in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America and those in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia are both under him. That adds quite a bit of people.

Now, since my primate is the Archbishop of Washington and New York, I have no particular vested interest in protecting the good Patriarch. However, ISTM that we may be looking at an issue of translation. No doubt his all-holiness and his worldwide jurisdiction have made some modernizing moves, but this statement I would need to see in its original language (presumably Greek).

Troy,

Thanks for your comment,
<i>It's unfair to claim that he has a flock of "about 40" when we in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America and those in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia are both under him. That adds quite a bit of people. </i>

That begs the question doesn't it? Why in "this day and age," are Greek Orthodox people in NA and Aus., ruled by a captive prelate in Turkey? My point isn't so much against our system of seniority, and the EP's care of the diaspora. Its that the notion of "modernizing" when used by the EP, is self-negating.

Hi Basil,
<i> However, ISTM that we may be looking at an issue of translation. No doubt his all-holiness and his worldwide jurisdiction have made some modernizing moves, but this statement I would need to see in its original language (presumably Greek). </i>
Good point, I would agree. I welcome any clarification from anyone has the opportunity to read Pat. BARTS's statements in Greek....particualry about "safe-sex," and "modernizing."

It will be hard to give you any clarification about the Patriarch's statement about unprotected sex in any language since the only place I have been able to find it all reference Michael Rossi and his piece in the Rutgers Daily Targum. I even did a Google search limited to the Ecumenical Patriarchate (http://www.ec-patr.g) on words in your first excerpted statement above. So either Mr. Rossi interviewed the Patriarch (which he doesn't mention), has access to something that is only in writing and not online, or he has possibly confused the Patriarch's statements with someone else. It is also curious that the second and third statements you use (from Mr. Rossi's piece) are not in the same context as the first from the Patriarch's speech[1] (which unless the Patriarchate has labelled it wrong, is not the same as the address in Venice in 2002[2] as asserted by Mr. Rossi). So until we can find the source of these comments, arguing what he meant about "unprotected sex" is a moot point.

Outdated institution? Why do you generate such animosity? Do you understand that you hurt other Orthodox by making these statements? Before you pick on the Greeks, read their history, talk to them and maybe then you can make a more informed statement. Modernizing does not also mean cutting off the past, it is not self-negating as you suggest.

Do not confuse the movement for a unified Orthodox jurisdiction in America with the removal of the Patriarchate of Constantinople. It is both in bad taste and disrespectful to do so (as is calling him "Black Bart").

[1]http://www.ec-patr.gr/ecology.php?lang=en&id=478&tla=en
[2]http://www.ec-patr.gr/ecology.php?lang=en&id=485&tla=en

George, thank you for taking the time to research the patriarch's statment.

For clarification, my point is not that the EP is an "outdated institution." But if the faith needs to be modernized (which is "anathema" to me), then he is putting his OWN institution at risk. Again, those who live in glass houses (ancient institutions) shouldn't throw stones (modernizations).

If I have created animosity or hurt anyone, particualry my brothers the Greek Orthodox, the I whole heartedly apologize....after all I want to be like St. Nektarios if I ever grow up!

But I think the discussion is important, particualry if the Patriarch is really saying the things attributed to him.

Forgive.

George, what does "to modernize the Church," mean to you?

Hi fdr, apology wholeheartedly accepted. I find that Antiochian & OCA members have a bone to pick with His All Holiness and as a Greek (from Canada) I can't understand why. If we as Orthodox Christians can't respect our leader (and he is the spiritual leader of _all_ Orthodox), especially when we believe in Apostolic succession, then how are we displaying our love for Holy Tradition? Do our parish priests say and do things sometimes that we don't always agree with or we think could have been said or done better? Yet we still love them, respect them and let them have authority in our lives. It should be the same with His All Holiness. Does that mean we can't question the things he says, No. It does mean that we should call him by his appropriate title and seek not to slander him or his office. Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now.

The "modernize the church" statement was made by Mr. Rossi not the Patriarch. But it is an interesting topic nonetheless. To me modernizing the church would be to take what the church has always believed and put it into today's context. For example Patriarch Bartholomew's environmental campaigning. The church has always believed that our sins pollute our soul and also that God's creation is man's dominion made for him to control and subdue. We also ask God during the liturgy "For favorable weather, an abundance of the fruits of the earth, and temperate seasons". How can we then turn around and pollute the earth? It is almost a perfect analogy of how we continue to pollute our lives with sin. Pollution wasn't a major issue until the industrial revolution and during that time period we didn't "know" the effects it was causing to the environment. In this century we know better. So why not apply the spiritual knowledge we have through Holy Tradition and the Scriptures to one of today's central "sins", the gradual destruction of our planet? Does this make sense? Do you see how "modernizing" does not always mean cutting off the past? That type of modernizing is what the Prots do :) Well then again there is the Emerging Church movement...

Thank you for your gracefulness. Yes I agree love and respect should dominate our references to our bishops. I guess some of us, like myself, bristle when the press makes the EP out be some kind of Orthodox pope. That probably prejudices us to suspect him of wanting to be pope.

{{So why not apply the spiritual knowledge we have through Holy Tradition and the Scriptures to one of today's central "sins", the gradual destruction of our planet? Does this make sense?}}

Yes I agree. I believe Orthodox should be leading the charge as far as good stewardship of this planet. I acknowledge that they call Pat. BARTHLOMOMEW the "Green Patriarch" for his efforts in encouraging environmentalism. I applaud him for that.

{{{ Do you see how "modernizing" does not always mean cutting off the past? }}

I wouldn't call that modernizing, I would call it being faithful to our tradition, in the new context. I have to admit, "modernizing" is a swear word to myself and others who have fled "contemporary worship" and doctrinal innovations and political correctness, for the safe harbor of Orthodoxy.

You didn't realize, that in welcoming in us converts, that we would be bringing in all this baggage! ;-)

I can see now how modernizing can be taken in the context you describe. I should have sensed that before I commented. If that's the kind of modernizing Mr. Rossi thinks the Patriarch is trying to create, then I don't want anything to do with it either. Thank you for your understanding of my comments.

If it were not for converts I wouldn't know as much about the faith of my Fathers as I do now. You and the other converts (specifically bloggers) infuse so much enthusiasm to Orthodoxy for me. I mean Orthodoxy has a vibrant life just on its own, it is the fullness of the Truth after all. But what I mean is the vigour and intensity that converts bring is such a wonderful blessing to those of us cradle Orthodox who don't fully appreciate our faith. Thank you.

Qote from "EP" snippet:

"Whether we commit physical acts of self-inflicted violence in the form of drug abuse or unprotected sex,"

Whether or not our EP was misquoted, I did not interpret this bit as was written in the first post above.

The key word here, of course, is "unprotected", which I took to mean "unprotected" as in meaning outside the sacrament of marriage. It is joined with the phrase "drug abuse" which is a signal to me of his intended message.

EP Bartholomew, IMHO, has done nothing to deserve any negative epithets.

Where is this coming from?
.
.

Hey George, I have heard it said that "all adult Orthodox, are converts," because at some point you had to embrace the faith for yourself. Thanks for your kind words!

Basil, thanks for your persepctive.

The continual practice of people casually copulating with others and spreading diseases such as HIV is, in fact, polluting the environment. It is something that tens of millions of people, even good Orthodox Christians who have repented of previous sins, have done and continue to do.

His All-Holiness' words are either poorly chosen or poorly translated, but I think that's what he meant.

I agree,and I hope your right....